Thoughts on smash characters
Smash 4 Personal Tier List Spoiler Tier List Notes: Miis are 1111 S and A tier is top tier, B+ is high tier, B is upper mid, C is mid, D is lower mid, E is low tier, and F is bottomish tier. Smash 4 is really balanced though; Zelda and the characters around that range would probably be around DK's range in Melee, Ipossibly/I even higher /Spoiler The reasonings for each and every character are below: (Warning:Wall of Text below. Click open at your own risk) Spoiler Diddy Kong:I think that, like many other people, that Diddy is the current #1. For one thing, Diddy has the best results out of anyone in this game. In 2015 and early 2016, ZeRo almost always got first using Diddy and Sheik, and gets good placements nowadays too with solo diddy. Zinoto also has great results, such as 2nd at CEO and beating players no matter the matchup, such as beating Dabuz muitiple times. MVD, Nietono, etc also get good results with Diddy. Diddy also has good theory. He has good aierals, with forward air and back air being very good at things such as comboing for back air, banana is one of the best projectiles in the game and confirms into grab and bananas, smashes have high knockback and can be confirmed into from down tilt and banana, etc Sheik: Fox: Mario: Rosalina: Cloud: Mewtwo: Sonic: Zero Suit Samus: Ryu: Bayonetta: Mega Man: Villager: Meta Knight: Pikachu: Ness: Toon Link: Greninja: Lucario: Captain Falcon: Yoshi: Luigi: Marth: Lucina: Corrin: Rob: Donkey Kong: Pac-Man: Pits: Peach: Ike: Olimar: Wario: Robin: Lucas: Wii Fit Trainer: Kirby: Duck Hunt: Bowser: Shulk: Mr. Game & Watch: Samus: Palutena: Bowser Jr: Dr. Mario: Link: Falco: Charizard: Little Mac: Roy: Mii Gunner: Jigglypuff: Mii Swordfighter: King Dedede: Ganondorf: Zelda: Mii Brawler: 58 /Spoiler If I'm wrong on something, please correct me. SWF Community Voted Tier List First of all, the tiers are getting way too big in certain areas right now, there should be a gap somewhere Bayonetta:Correct. I don't think she's in her own tier, she shares S tier with Rosalina imo. (And btw, that is my ONLY disagreement with top five, the characters are in order, and tiers are correct apart from Rosalina not being in the same tier as Bayonetta) Bowser:Bowser I think should go down a tiny bit, but his spot is generally fine, it just needs a few characters that are too low above him, such as Mega Man. I think people overrate him because of forgetting his flaws, such as his bad landing options, for example Bowser Jr:How come he's at bottom 7? He has more then the people in his tier, and some people above him *cough* Link *cough*. For one, his aierals are pretty good. His aierals all have great range, for one, with the exception of up air. They also have great knockback and damage to, once again with the exception of up air. This all gives him a nice aieral game. His ground game is also pretty good, his up tilt is good at comboing into itself, down tilt is good as a replacement jab, smashes are pretty good in their own things, for example knockback. Speaking of which, Bowser Jr has great ko power. His up spsecial, aierals, and all smashes are pretty good at this. He also has pretty good recovery. However, he DOES suffer from certain flaws, such as some useless flaws and terrible throws, which prevent him from going TOO much higher. Captain Falcon: Captain Falcon, I think might be a little too high, the pits are easily better than him in theory, as is Yoshi imo. Captain Falcon's matchup spread is also way too poor to put him this high. Charizard:Charizard, I think is a little too low. I think he should be mid-tier-low-mid tier, deoending on prespective. The buffs on muitiple versions have he ped him A TON. He's got good aierals, great range, good combos, great KO power and damage, good throws. His potential is pretty good. The only reason why people place him so low is his frame data and results, and his frame data isn't even horrendeusly bad. His results, however, are. He has no players and no results, nothing. Not a single thing. However, I think theory allows him to be above Roy, Link, Shulk, etc. Cloud:Cloud is a little too high, Diddy should be above him, but otherwise, correct Corrin:I honestly think Corrin is the worst high tier, at 29th. Most of Corrin's moves are pretty bad or lackluster, and while some moves, such as side special, are really good, most of them don't get worse than annoying. He also has no results apart from the occasional secondary Corrin from an Ike main. King Dedede: King Dedede is a just barely too low right now, I think he is better than Ganondorf and Zelda, but that Jigglypuff should be above him. This would put him one spot higher, which is accurate with full moveset miis. Dark Pit:Read Pit Donkey Kong: Donkey Kong's is pretty much correct, apart from that Mii Brawler should be above him. Unfortently, though, most think he is top 20, which i don't think is the case. Diddy Kong:A little low, imo he should be above Cloud and possibly even Rosalina and Bayo. Dr. Mario:Dr. Mario I think must have just gotten too many up votes last time. He defitenly is not better than Mega Man and Wii Fit Trainer. Dr. Mario is extremely slow, and has no results apart from Nairo (Who doesn't even main him) beating Esam at MLG. And Esam ended up beating his Dr. Mario in two games at Genesis 3. Dr. Mario has a ton of problems getting in because of his slow speed (Although he isn't low tier since he's extremely strong and his frame data is good). Duck Hunt:People really overexaggerate Duck Hunt's flaws, his killing ability is bad, but people act like he can't kill until at least 200, but only bad players will keep their opponent always living this long. He at least has up air, can tricks and edgeguarding, back air, etc. His smashes don't properly connect, but many inputted smashes are going to properly connect and cause the opponent to die. His smashes are still fairly good, or AT LEAST average. His recovery is bad, but so is Cloud's and he's the 3rd best. Duck Hunt's recovery isn't as easily edgeguarded as people act like, and its distance isn't as bad. People act like he's recovering in SLHG (lol). He still has some great strengths too, but people act like he has no strengths. He also has better results than a ton of the people ahead of him, due to Brood, Yusan, and Dandypenguin (5th at glitch, 13th at super smash con, 9th at tipped off) Falco:Falco, I think, is fine where he is, Charizard should be right above him and Bowser Jr. should be above him instead of Dr. Mario and Shulk, but the spot is close enough, one spot off is fine. Fox:Fox, I think is a little low. He should still be below Sonic, but he should be above Ryu and Mario. Fox is better in theory and in results, than Ryu and Mario are. Ganondorf:Ganondorf is a little too high, he's kinda terrible, and should be second to last behind Zelda (Who should be in last). He has a terrible matchup spread, bad results, terrible recovery, Terrible throws, terrible frame data, bad approaching, terrible mobility, etc. Greninja:Greninja's spot I think is correct. Yes, I think he is better than Corrin Ike: Ike, I think, is too low, he is defitenly better than Corrin, Rob, and Peach, because of his great theory and good matchup spread. He is, however, falling slightly, but he should still be some many other characters Jigglypuff: I think Jigglypuff, honestly, isn't last, and shoudn't be in last on this list. I don't even think she should be in the last three! I think she should be at 4th from last. I think that, due to her actually good matchup spread for someone that low, great aierals, good up tilt, pound, dash attack, and jab, great air mobility, great edgeguarding, and many other reasons, that she isn't this low, and that she will be high tier in the game's future. Kirby:Kirby is my own MAIN and i think he's too high. Not crazy high, only a few spots (I have him at 35th), but his neutral and approaching are bad enough to put him behind Mega Man, Robin, Olimar, and Wii Fit Trainer, and his Sonic and Toon Link matchups are really bad. Despite this, however, he has enough strengths to stay at least somewhat viable (Mikekirby was able to get 5th at a ktar, and 13th at glitch, using JUST Kirby.). Little Mac: Little Mac's spot is almost correct, maybe like one or two spots lower and he'd be correct. Link:Link's spot is litertatly so wrong, that it is destroying this tier list. He has terrible recovery, bad moveset, terrible frame data, terrible mobility, many terrible moves, such as dash attack, down tilt, and down smash, bad matchup spread, etc. It makes NO sense at all for Link to be here. Lucario: As long as Rob and Peach fall down enough, Lucario is fine where he is. Lucas:I think Lucas is too high for sure, as he has no results and current theory is a few spots lower, which would put him lower. I think Mega Man, Robin, WFT, Game & Watch, Olimar, and Kirby should be above him, possibly Marth too. Lucina:Read Marth Luigi: Luigi I think is pretty low, I think he and Ike should be in the tier above instead of Corrin, Rob, and Peach, due to his good matchup spread, good combos, great throws, great aierals, and good jab and good projectile. He does however, suffer from problems such as terrible recovery, so he can't go too much higher. Mario: Mario I think is too highy for someone as basic as him. Everything he has is basic, which makes him worse than Sonic, Fox, and Villager, espicially his matchup spread., He however, is good average; average top tier good, which means he doesn't need to drastictially fall. Marth:Marth, Honestly, I think is way too high. I don't see how he can be better than Mega Man, Kirby, Wii Fit Trainer, Robin, etc. Marth still has some pretty bad flaws. Mega Man:Almost no one, if anyone at all, thinks Mega Man is this low, people are just ignoring him. Mega Man's pellets are great, his up tilt is great, his down tilt is good, his smashes are good, His aierals are good, his killing power is great with up tilt, smashes and aierals, his metal blade is good, his projectiles are great, he is hard to approach since he can wall you easily due to his projectiles, mainly pellets and metal blade, has good results because of Scatt, and has randomly good or ok matchups aganist top tiers. I don't see how he's in the 40s. Meta Knight: Meta Knight's spot is correct, as long as Ness falls below him. Mewtwo:I think Mewtwo is correct where he is, though he both feels like he's too high and too low due to other character's placements Mii Brawler:I don't know much about all moves Miis, but I think he could still be at least two spots higher. Mii Gunner:I don't know much about full moveset Miis, but he seems to be around the correct spot. Mii Swordfighter:I don't know much about all moves miis, but I think Swordighter should be a little higher. At least above Link (lol) and Falco Mr. Game & Watch: Mr. Game & Watch I think is much too low. I think he should be above Marcina, Samus, Lucas, Shulk, Bowser, and Dr. Mario, due to his randomly good matchup spread, espicially aganist characters such as Mario and Pikachu, his great aierals, and his many good ground attacks, good comboing ability, his good kill power (Though killing is a problem, so this doesn't mean much, and great results from Regi. Ness: Ness, I think might be a little too low, Meta Knight and Pikachu should be above him, but otherwise, correct. Olimar:Olimar, I think is overrated, but he still seems too low right now. HOW is he below Samus, Marcina, Lucas, and Kirby? Huh? I think he should be fairly higher, at 31st. Pac-Man: I think Pac-Man is just slightly too low, since Corrin, Rob, and Peach are too high. Get them lower and Pac-Man would be at a good spot. He has a good matchup spread, great projectile, pretty good aierals, good recovery, good projectile tricks, is hard to approach, and has good theory in general. Palutena:Palutena, I think is fine where she is. I think Roy should be below her instead of Duck Hunt, but yea, this spot is accurate imo. Peach:Peach has some pretty good strengths, such as good aierals, but in general, I think she is way too high. She has an extremely small playerbase and is one of the hardest characters to use, so she has trouble getting results (Although she does have some, such as 7th at Paragon and 17th at Genesis 3). She also has a pretty bad recoverry, bad mobility, a ton of bad ground attack, teouble killing outside of reads (This isn't that bad though), and is easily hit. She has some bad flaws, and I think she should be 28th on here. Ike, Mewtwo, Luigi, Lucario, and Pac-Man should defitenly all be above her. Pikachu:I think Pikachu's spot is correct. Nothing else really to say here. Pit:The pits are a little too low I think, I think they are better than Corrin, Toon Link, and Captain Falcon for sure. I think they're the best high tiers (Greninja I think is top-high, which is a tier I have in between top and high. Pikachu and Ness are also in it.) Rob:Rob, I think, is way too high. I think Rob is extremely overrated tbh. He has a bad matchup spread for somebody in high tier, lack of results in general, pretty bad ground attacks apart from projectiles, Easy to gimp, etc. Rob defitenly doesn't belong up here, like Peach, and should be below Ike, Luigi, Mewtwo, Lucario, and Pac-Man. Robin:Robin is still a little bit too low, but just get Samus, Marcina, Lucas, and Kirby where they belong and he's fine. Rosalina:Correct. However, I think she should be in the same tier as Bayonetta. I think they have similar viability, and Bayonetta isn't good enough to have her own tier Roy:When all miis get all customs, Then the last tier (I guess second last because of Mii Brawler tier) becomes five characters. I think the best out of those five (Which is 5th from last) is Roy. I don't see how exactatly he belongs in tier 6, when results, theory, and matchups are all worse than that. Ryu: Ryu I think is too high, since he has low results and has a below average matchup spread for a top tier, so Sonic, and Fox should be above him. Samus:She got too many up votes, and then people never realized how high she is lol. Her and Marcina's position is screwing up the placement of characters such as Mega Man, Robin, and Wii Fit Trainer a lot. Samus is in no way better then Olimar, Mega Man, Wii Fit Trainer, Robin, etc. She still has some flaws, and her strengths aren't as crazy good as being suggested here. imo, Samus should be at 40th, as the buffs DEFITENLY have helped her a ton, but i don't see how it helped her THIS much. Sheik:Sheik I think should be a little higher, but not too much higher. She has pretty bad killing problems now, like Pikachu (But slightly better) and her all-around top tier matchup spread is pretty poor for a top tier, same viability as Pikachus basicially, but with no polarizing matchups, but instead multiple scattered negative matchups and not too many posisitive or even matchups in return. She should at least be above Pikachu, Mario, and Meta Knight though. Shulk:Shulk, like Dr. Mario, got a little too many votes, and ended up skyrocketing up. Most people don't think he's that high, but, like me, they don't find it bad enough to waste a vote on it. But yea, Shulk is too high, his frame data and lack of results outside of low tier tourneys and random upsets by a Shulk Secondary proves that he isn't THIS high (yet) Sonic: Sonic, like Fox, should be above Mario and Ryu. Sonic is better in theory for both of them, has a better matchup spread than Mario, and has more results than Ryu. Toon Link:Pretty much correct. I think the Pits should be above him, and Corrin below him, but otherwise, correct. Villager:Correct. I think he is 10th, although I think Sheik should be above him, while Mario should be below him. Wario:Wario I think, while still having been clearly overrated before, is too low now, he's still high tier, just one of the worst high tiers, at 28th imo. He still has one of the best command grabs, good air mobility, good aierals and tilts, etc. He has some big flaws though. Depite this, I think he should still be above Kirby, Marcina, Samus, Corrin, and Lucas. Wii Fit Trainer: I think Wii Fit Trainer is a little too low right now, I think she is better than Marcina, Samus, Shulk, and Dr. Mario at the very least, as her theory is better than theirs and her results are super great, probably high tier level results. Not sure why people place her at the 40s so much. Yoshi: Yoshi I think is about correct where he is, I think he is better than Corrin and Captain Falcon, but that's it. Zelda:imo, these buffs didn't help her that much, and didn't buff her in the way she needs it. I think that, due to miis getting all moves, that she should be last in this list. Zero Suit Samus:Correct. Templates Bayonetta: Bowser: Bowser Jr: Captain Falcon: Charizard: Cloud: Corrin: King Dedede: Dark Pit:Read Pit Donkey Kong: Diddy Kong: Dr. Mario: Duck Hunt: Falco: Fox: Ganondorf: Greninja: Ike: Jigglypuff: Kirby: Little Mac: Link: Lucario: Lucas: Lucina: Luigi: Mario: Marth: Mega Man: Meta Knight: Mewtwo: Mii Brawler: Mii Gunner: Mii Swordfighter: Mr. Game & Watch: Ness: Olimar: Pac-Man: Palutena: Peach: Pikachu: Pit: Rob: Robin: Rosalina: Roy: Ryu: Samus: Sheik: Shulk: Sonic: Toon Link: Villager: Wario: Wii Fit Trainer: Yoshi: Zelda: Zero Suit Samus: